Ana Božović was on duty at the entrance to the "Vladislav Ribnikar" school together with her friend Bojana Asović when, on May 3rd of this year, KK killed both of them, along with seven other students and students and a school guard. Almost eight months later, Ana's parents Ninela Radičević and Ivan Božović are still fighting to get a memorial at this school, along with some of the parents whose children were also killed. Ninela and Ivan take part in something that sounds terrible both when written and when thought about - the protest of parents of murdered children.
What kind of country and society is it in which parents of murdered children are protesting? A country where "the system did not fail", where there is a conflict between parents of children who did not survive and children who did. A country where the parents of the murdered children have to organize a protest to fight for the memorial center, and to prevent the staff from having breakfast today at the same table where their children were sitting at the time of the murder.
Ninela and Ivan accepted the invitation of "Vremena" to talk about this, even though they are both, they say, tired. At the very beginning, we talk about what is the topic of everyone and everywhere these days: elections.
"I am not an optimist when it comes to the future of this society," says Ninela. "This is what the results of these elections show, as well as everything that is happening now. We have been systematically broken as a society for the last 30 years, and I have the impression that May 3rd was the crown of it. It is proof of the complete non-existence of society and an image of Serbia that is completely devastating, and in that sense, I am really not optimistic. When you see that 180.000 people voted for Nestorović... So, you have such a large number of people that I can only think that they are doing well. They are joking around, they can't find a better option, so they think it's a lot of fun to vote for Nestorovic, but... They don't really take seriously where we live. That's a message in itself, very bad.”
"WEATHER" Were you hoping for something??
NINELA RADIČEVIĆ: I did hope after May 3, and I really hoped for a better result of these elections, in terms of a higher percentage of people who voted for the opposition, the opposition party. After May 3rd, even the little sense of community fell apart. If people did not react after that day and came out en masse, in a situation where children are being killed in your school, what should happen? Are we talking about 30, 50, 100 victims? Are we waiting for it to happen again, only with more victims?
How did you experience the fireworks and champagne on election night??
IVAN BOZOVIC: I'm so tired and drained emotionally that I didn't get emotionally invested in the elections. Of course, I went to vote, we were all, like, waiting to see the results, but somehow, I guess we are so disappointed, that we think that even if something changes, it would take a long time for something to start improving here.
In this situation of ours, we have seen that all political options are pulling on our side, and we try all the time not to get involved in those political stories. But it is difficult, because one side and the other are trying to pull you in, as it were, through various situations that we went through on their side. You see the flaws on both sides. Of course, we see a much greater responsibility in the authorities for what happened, but on the other hand, you see how it has been seven months now, according to some of the actions of the opposition, they always look at their own interests because they rarely really do anything in the public interest. . It is clear to us that they are looking to overthrow the government, but then again, we expected a little more humanity from them. They say that "Ribnikar" is a tricky subject and avoid approaching us.
No one approached us and I understand that, probably everyone was afraid of our reaction. But again, in such a situation, you rework your political fears and interests a bit, then you act like a human and approach. They grope and twist everything, we would appreciate it more if they called us directly, even if they got angry, but it's okay if you bear our anger.
NINELA: Please, in a year when we had two mass murders, what kind of fireworks, what kind of champagne? I really think that for the New Year we should all sit and be quiet and wait for it to pass. Because the way society is behaving now, the way it denies what happened, I think that as a society we are in a deep trauma that we are not aware of. Humanity was missing. So, what Ivan says, no one addressed us. Nobody. Since May 3, when it happened, you first have a situation where no one has taken responsibility. You have a school that says it is not responsible.
I think that the fundamental problem here is that people do not understand the difference between responsibility and guilt. Why won't the school accept responsibility? Maybe they don't understand that being responsible doesn't mean being guilty? But as a responsible person you have to show what you did to prevent some bad event or outcome. Everyone has a certain amount of responsibility in their job, but that doesn't mean it's my fault if my team makes a mistake. My main impression is that on May 3, everyone just shouted "no, I'm not guilty". They all decided that it was better to stay away, because if they approached us, something would be confirmed - I don't even know what. It was as if everyone was running away from us. We found ourselves in the situation of losing a child. Child. At school. And then everyone treats us as if we are some, I don't know, some "mange", no one will approach you.
Do you think it happened because people don't know how to communicate or if they look at you, they look at their greatest fear?
IVAN: Yes, I think he overcame that fear. But if you are human, you overcome your fear and approach. However, everyone quickly reached for what they know best: the government to show that the system has not failed, that they have everything under control, that this is an incident that happens everywhere, so it happened here, too. Later we heard that it was "Ribnikar", a special school, and that's why it happened there. We have systematically destroyed each other's feelings. But I still hope that it is a minority that does not have the capacity to guess some things.
And when we agreed on this conversation, even now that we've started it, You mentioned fatigue.. What is it that drains you?, and it shouldn't, in the situation you are in?
NINELA: We have been talking about the same topics since May 3rd. In no sense have we made a step forward except in relation to that criminal procedure. There, it's done. But, as far as memorialization is concerned, we haven't even taken half a step. Absolutely nothing happens there. As for the school itself, a complete frenzy started very quickly - the Parents' Council, which took the lead, and it goes to such an extent that I really have the impression that they are also being instructed. I really can't understand so much misunderstanding that literally turns into evil. The comments of those people addressed to us are so terrible, that I cannot repeat them publicly. And that started very soon after May 3rd. To this day, we do not know exactly who made the decision to return the children to school a week later. We never got that decision.
IVAN: It was like a team, we heard that there was a document, but none of us saw it. There was a story about how the Parents' Council was asked to collect the opinions of the parents of their classes. But in the meantime, some team of experts made an independent decision to start school in a week.
I don't understand what kind of experts they are who know so quickly what needs to be done in a situation that has never happened here before. Then that Council of Parents latched onto that opinion and defend it with such passion that it's strange, to say the least.
We don't need that memorial center. I am now speaking on behalf of our family. Ana is in our hearts and her memorial is in my heart. This society needs a memorial center precisely because of everything we talked about, because of the collective absence of compassion and togetherness. That, in my opinion, is the point of the memorial center.
– Ninela Radičević
How is it all of a sudden, in our Serbia like this, that you trust that team so much, that you fight so much, and you don't ask who is the one who made that decision? It is incredible to me that after two days you are sure that this is the right way for the children to return to that school, and you know that at that moment there are probably hundreds of children who have a problem getting into school. Those hundreds of children are not a problem for you either. I don't know, it's unbelievable to me. That's why we suspect that it came from somewhere, again in the light of the fact that it has to be shown immediately that there is no crisis and that it was an incident. To cover up and move on.
NINELA: But here again the children are sacrificed, these are the children who are forced to return to school even though they feel bad when they enter there. The children wanted to be together and they needed it, but not in that building. We talked about it with government representatives during the summer, we had meetings after which nothing has happened until today. But we talked about what if at least one child is not allowed to enter school in September and what will we do? But it's like, it doesn't matter, it's just one child, and with us, everything is seen in numbers.
And what have we now since the beginning of this school year?
NINELA: Eh, what do we have now... We have a large number of traumatized children whose parents have written them out of "Ribnikar". More of them would have been registered, but the surrounding schools did not want to accept children from "Ribnikar". That's what I've been told by parents who are trying to enroll their children and that transfer is still going on, even now during the semester. We still have a couple of close friends who transferred their children. And I don't know anyone who is not in a dilemma about what to do with the child and whether to write him off.
And that Council of Parents... I really think that they are deeply traumatized people because what they say to our faces are not the words of a sane person... We are not talking about denying what happened, it is a direct attack on us whose children were killed.
IVAN: There are some things said that are absolutely terrible. Absolutely terrible. We have been in a crazy state for too long, people are so self-absorbed, in their torment and constant struggle, that "only for me to be" and their sick statements stem from that. You know, when someone says in front of the mother of a murdered child: "Let's talk more about dead children, the living ones are more important." How out of balance you must be with yourself to say something like that, it's pure shock and trauma, but then again, what about you guys? I keep quiet when I'm not sure what to say. The need of some people in that Council of Parents to continue to be involved somehow instead of first talking to someone who understands what happened to us or can help us understand. It scares me that some people know and understand what happened. I don't know and I don't understand.
And on that line of misunderstanding, your fight for memorialization takes place. What is happening in that matter?
IVAN: We have been in communication with the Government of Serbia's team since the beginning and we are talking with them, but everything is going very slowly. We were at meetings last summer and our request was that the part of the school where everything happened should not be touched. And he's not really used, so that's kind of a concession to us. Also, it is important for you to know that not all parents are included in our protest and not all agree with us. Most of us participate in the protests, as well as parents who have withdrawn their children from "Ribnikar" or are planning to do so. We want the government's decision and we are upset by the constant pressure from the Council of Parents and Teachers who want to return to that part of the school. We initiated the formation of a multidisciplinary team, got in touch with expert and renowned people who deal with history, psychology, the Society of Victimology... We would like them to get a mandate to deal with it. However, the pressure for that part of the building to be used again bothers us a lot, and that's why we want the Government to make a decision about what will happen to it, and not for us to be constantly under pressure that someone will return there.
It also bothers us that they returned there after seven days. But it's not just that they came back, but meetings were held at that very place in the corridor, so there was some kind of book distribution where it happened.
At the table where Ana and Bojana were sitting, the teachers were eating burek! It is terrible that after such a short time they continued to use the same rooms, the same objects...
We had the opportunity to hear from the parents of the murdered children that it is no longer a school but an execution ground, and here you two speak more often "Building" or "the city" nego "school". What is that place for you??
NINELA: To me, the building where nine children were killed and their guardian is no longer a school. It is an execution ground. This is an attitude that we share and we think that it can no longer be a place where children come to socialize and learn. For the sake of our children, as well as for the sake of other children, it should no longer be a school. A school is people, and a building can be anywhere.
IVAN: Considering what happened there, I think that our society needs such a place where what happened would simply be remembered and stand as a reminder. I think that place should be a memorial center. School can be anywhere else, but we have a problem with not remembering anything, that's why horrors happen to us all the time. That's why there should be a reminder instead of a school. There is no healing for this society if the school remains there. The children who go there now will go further, to some other schools. Only we stay there forever. Everyone else will leave.
NINELA: Whenever you say "Ribnikar" after May 3rd, the only association with that place is that May 3rd and it will stay that way. But would anyone enroll a child in a school that carries such a burden? School is a place where children should be beautiful. And now you're pushing them to go somewhere where a mass murder happened, hey...
IVAN: If everyone had reacted differently from the beginning, maybe they would have changed this association with "Ribnikar", maybe the narrative could have changed, so that the place reminds of togetherness, solidarity, understanding. It could have been a school where something terrible happened, but compassion was awakened. But here, in those meetings we have with the representatives of the ministries, we see some people who are genuinely affected by what happened to us, but it is clear that they do not have the capacity to implement anything. They assure us that they will do everything, while you are there, you believe them, but as soon as you leave there, you know that no one can do it. Because these are not people who make decisions. These are all state secretaries, assistant ministers, but they have no weight. And if they want something, firstly they don't know, secondly, they can't make a decision on their own because everything is centralized. And so you realize that you are just wasting energy, and every such meeting drains all the strength out of us.
Forwards, if we talk about the memorial itself, and you are organizing a protest, and then ten comes-fifteen people and one or two media, What message are you getting?, does this society need a memorial center?
NINELA: That is also my observation and that is why I have less and less will to try to raise awareness, to explain... You know, we don't need that memorial center. I am now speaking on behalf of our family. Ana is in our hearts and her memorial is in my heart. This society needs a memorial center precisely because of everything we talked about, because of the collective absence of compassion and togetherness. That, in my opinion, is the point of the memorial center. But you are right: if a hundred people and five media came to our first protest, and only our closest friends already 10 days later, it is clear to us that we are not the subject and that it is not important. So why am I investing myself and trying to do something good? Because, you see, our need to do something good is tied to the very sacrifice of our children. Our children are victims, but victims of what? I come to the conclusion that they are victims of this society. And then we constantly try to design that sacrifice, to give it some meaning, to be a catalyst for something better in this society. That's why we came out publicly and we find strength in that. But, when you look at the facts: no one has taken responsibility, the processes are going slowly or not at all, May 3rd has been forgotten by the media... You already know the sentences that will be heard in the media, you know the one: "Today marks five months since the tragic event... ” And that's all that will be heard.
Somehow, the fact that people turn their heads away from you and people don't know how to approach you always comes through our conversation. How you would like people to address you and how they should talk to you?
IVAN: Somehow there is also a narrative that we are some kind of elite from Vračar and that should be mentioned. But I think that the most important thing is to put a character next to the phrase "parents of murdered children", so that people can see that we are also ordinary people. I think we have achieved that by showing up and we are really getting messages of support from the region. We are open to being approached and we are normal.
Now when I talk to people, I see right away, in the first moment, if he has some empathy and if he sees it in the right way, if he has a bigger picture and I like to talk with such people. And believe me, it also happens that they tell us nonsense, that someone explains to me how "that little guy was trained", that he talks to me like someone on the street, as if it happened to someone else. I had such a conversation two months after Anna's death. And I tell him: stop, you're talking to me, I can't listen to that. There are people who simply cannot find empathy.
But whoever approaches normally, with understanding and wants to talk, no problem. We can also disagree, for example, about what should happen to the school. But if you approach me and tell me that it should be "like this, like this", then don't approach me. If someone wants a dialogue, if they want to give us another perspective, they are welcome. However, I am annoyed by people who in this situation are "me, me, me", "I was there then"... For someone to tell me where he was, but to talk to me - no. I can't talk to people like that. I just can't listen to someone know what this is and have simple answers to the tough questions. There are many people who understand everything.
Is there anything that is clear to you now?, without it being clear to you before?
IVAN: It was already clear to us how wrong things were, but somehow everything was revealed to us. Each of us lives in our own bubble, all our friends are similar to us, we all somehow thought: here, we have jobs, we make money, we socialize, we are aware of the situation, but the children are growing up, they have everything they need, we are not dependent on the state. Well, then something like this happens to you and you see that you need a lot from the state, but there is no state. You have no institutions and the state forces you to take matters into your own hands. And that's terrible.
Forwards, you must not bear the burden of fixing this society and it is not your obligation.
NINELA: No, we know it's not. But we are put in that situation. With all inaction, we should only be able to suffer and be aware of our own loss. However, society's inaction pushes us as parents into a struggle. I personally feel that if I do nothing and no one else does, I feel worse as a mother. I will do anything for my child. Society forces you to exhaust yourself to your ultimate capacity, and it shouldn't be like that. I don't need to teach society empathy, but we are pushed into that role against our will. We don't want to sit here now, we don't want to go on television and give interviews, we are not those people who need media exposure.
But, personally, I have the impression that I will let my Ana down if I do nothing. We do all this for her, we owe it to her.
IVAN: It gives us strength, the thought that Ana is watching us from somewhere and that if we sit and keep silent, we can disappoint her. I think that's the only reason we won't keep quiet because we also taught her not to keep silent to anyone and to fight, even to her own detriment. We do as we were taught; if we remain silent in the face of injustice, we betray her trust. Whenever we fall, we think about it and tell ourselves that we have to get up. We'll rest one day when we've pushed it all out. There is still a lot of work to do, but we don't want to regret one day because we didn't do everything we could.
NINELA: It's important, it's important to me as a mother, that one day even if nothing happens, I can say to myself: but, I've tried everything. Otherwise, it's something that would eat at me for the rest of my life. We are no longer afraid of anything because nothing can happen to us anymore.
The only problem is when you see the resistance and when you see that there is no result of your struggle, it eats away at you from the inside and I'm sure it affects your health as well. Somehow we have to find a way because it is not an idea to hit our head against the wall. We have another child to think about. We have to be functional parents to him as well, and already by the definition of the trauma we are going through, we are not optimal parents for our child, at least not in the way that Ivan and I expect from ourselves. But we have to be there for our son, to rejoice in his successes and to make him a good and healthy man, the way Anna would have liked.
We are constantly thinking about what Anna would like. As a mother, it was always important for me to teach a female child to be herself, to trust herself and her qualities. And she was terribly fair and she was banging her head against the wall for it. And I really think that Ana taught me, not me her, what it means to be fair. Right now I'm worn out and I feel like it's all in vain. But I know that I need time to gather energy because we will not give up. We have ups and downs, everything that happens to us is exhausting, soon there will be a trial, we are constantly in some sort of struggle.
