There is no need to recall roles in plays, films and series Svetozar Cvetković, and we should save space for this conversation that arose on the occasion performances On whose side Roland Harwood. It was played ten days ago at the Minor fortress on the island of Mali Brijun in Croatia, directed by Lenka Udovički and co-produced by the local theater "Ulysses" and Sarajevo's SARTR. Svetozar Cvetković plays the famous conductor Wilhelm Furtwängler, who during the time of Nazism chose to fight in Berlin with music against the pernicious ideology. After two months of preparing the play and thinking about Wilhelm Furtwängler's question about what an artist should do in a totalitarian regime: should he continue doing his work or not agree to the regime appropriating his work, Cvetković returned to reality full of the same questions.
"WEATHER" Wilhelm Furtwängler existed. How did you prepare?, are you, for example listening to recordings of the Berlin Philharmonic concerts he conducted, read about him?
SVETOZAR CVETKOVIĆ: I've been thinking about Wilhelm Furtwängler for almost thirty years. From the first encounter with that piece, from Ronald Harwood's arrival in Belgrade, from the first encounter with his question: what is an artist obliged to do and what is allowed and what is not allowed, in a society that, in Germany in the 1930s, was National Socialist. I have been thinking about Thomas Mann's novel for thirty years Death in Venice and to Professor Aschenbach, for whom I am also trying to find a moral justification and an answer to the question of whether his potential infatuation with a boy is an illicit or permissible relationship, whether it is sincere and not criminal - as it would be easy to characterize him today. Only in the last few weeks I feel the same connection, as with Furtwängler and Professor Aschenbach, and with the Adagio from Bruckner's Seventh Symphony, which is used in our performance. With that music as in some kind of epilogue of life, this play of ours symbolizes a requiem for the world we live in, for everything that happens in the world, for all the artists who try to change the world with their art, which is quite a utopian idea. But someone succeeds.
I have listened to most of Wilhelm Furtwängler's concertos, recorded between 39 and 45, which have remained in remarkable tonal records. I watched a film recording of him conducting under three huge flags of Fascist Germany. And when Goering approaches him and shakes his hand. Istvan Szabo's film of the same name ends with Goering coming in and congratulating Furtwängler, and then Szabo zooms in on Furtwängler's hand as he wipes it with a handkerchief. Here Sabo seems to absolve not only one artist, but also art from being involved in criminal politics. At the end of the play, my hero says "how could I have known that they were such criminals". And now what? Should I believe him or not? I defend my character, I defend him historically, and I believe him.
A performance On whose side it was part of the repertoire "Atelier 212" while you were the director of that theater. Is there a theater in Serbia where he could play??
In the piece itself, Helmut Rode (the unique Alban Ukaj), second violin in the Berlin Philharmonic, confessing after the war, under pressure, to Major Arnold (what about Ozren Grabarić), a member of the American occupation government, tells him that in a totalitarian regime, man himself censors his words, thoughts, and feelings. I recently tried to give an interview to the media, which in our country is colloquially called the regime media, thinking that it is okay for someone, who might think differently, to hear what I think. However, I didn't want to authorize it because most of it was censored, there weren't any completely benign things I said. At this point, I return to my self-censorship: yes, there was a possibility to do this play in Belgrade as well. We didn't. For what reason - I know and I don't. But we didn't. Not because of the topic, but simply - we are not. It turned out that Sarajevo is a freer space in which we can work with this team. As for Serbia and Belgrade, we will play Harwood. We have an appointment for December 4th at the Belgrade Drama Theatre, as part of the "Ruta" festival. And it's a good opportunity for Belgrade to see our show On whose sideI think that's important.
That the regime media did not feel the need to brag about how a Serbian actor is playing the main role in Croatia, the question about the artist in totalitarianism would not reach Serbia...
In the finale of the piece, Furtwängler says that an artist cannot be completely apolitical because he is a human being and that it is the artist's duty as a citizen to express his beliefs. And then he goes on to say "But as a musician I am much more than an ordinary citizen". Well, now: am I, as an actor, much more than an ordinary citizen? As a Furtwängler, would I not benefit anyone by my active participation, or would I? These are the questions Harwood asks and is fantastically answered by Furtwängler's would-be accuser in a trial that never took place because no evidence was ever gathered that the man was a collaborator. It would be like if they played Duško Kovačević for us now, and someone would blame us for why we do that while what is happening on the street is happening. Taking sides in a play like this one can be healing, enlightening. But that's why taking sides in an antagonized society like ours is something that can lead us into civil war conflict. And that is unacceptable. I think that this conflict is too radicalized and my real feeling is the fear of a constant conflict, of the fact that many innocent people on the street are killed by anonymous people, and those who fight for left-wing ideas, for something that is humane, that is broad-minded, that is not the destructive type of right-wing nationalism that exists in our country. Those people are punished for having their free thought.
Furtwängler considered it his mission to save Germany from an upside-down ideology through art. This is impossible for local artists, because the state has money only for those who are to its liking. How is it possible to act in such a situation?
At one time, in the early nineties, I believed that with a group of great like-minded people it was possible to preserve something that was impossible to preserve, because the majority did not want it: the country in which we lived. The famous Croatian journalist and writer Igor Mandić once said that the country we lived in was the best possible environment for something that was productive both artistically and economically, but also safe. It was my idea. It was my struggle that was in vain. I lost there, I was in a big minority. But even today, no matter how much someone here or there doesn't like it, and no one likes it too much anywhere, I still feel like a Yugoslav. And as my character from the play says "I love my country and my people", I may love a non-existent country and my non-existent people. At that point I seem to disconnect from what is up to date, because I am attached to something I lost. And because in what I lost, I see a big missed chance for something that could have been an improvement in the country and the environment, in Europe, and ultimately in the world.
We should live in a society that, first of all, will not be dominated by any violence from any side. We should live in a country where we can say what we think and where everyone can say their opinion. And those views can differ, but we shouldn't kill each other because of that. Every man in our country should be allowed to say, to express his feelings, without losing a hair on his head because of it. And that is not so.
What does it mean to decide today?, to take sides?
Taking a side would be nothing terrible, if those sides were not directed negatively towards each other to such an extent and if they were not exclusive. There is always a position and an opposition everywhere, but they don't exist here. In our country, on the one hand, there is a manufactured group of people that is derogatorily called "Ćaci", and on the other hand, there is another group that is derogatorily called "Blokaderi" - (alias Ustashas and traitors). And in all of that, man cannot find his place. This is what leads us directly into conflict and this is what is fatal. In the reports of those who report and are connected to the government, the idiom "Student movement" was lost and "Blockaders" appeared, those who allegedly do not allow a normal life, or - even worse, those who are connected to a pernicious ideology such as the Ustasha ideology. And now, when it is served to someone uninformed, he will understand it that way. Then again, that wording "Ćaci" was funny at one point, but now it's sad. And then you realize that we are threatened by a civil conflict between two formations. I think someone would have to stand in the way of that. An artist cannot do that. Neither through his art, nor through his words. It has to be someone who leads. Who leads one side or the other. That is my terrifying fear for all of us. I am thinking above all of the children and my children who are on the street and against whom, of course, I cannot be. That conflict, which is constantly simmering, is fatal. And that nomenclature treads exactly where it should, it multiplies hatred, in order for conflict to occur.
Both guilt and the guilty are also themes of Harwood's play, but also ours: Croats and Montenegrins and students and others who do not think according to dictates are also to blame for this government. By what right and by what criteria are people now being accused of being guilty?
The guilt is unfathomable. I travel often, so I can see that we are also guilty there. To both, and just like that for no reason. After those, now long-ago wars, there was one desire of the authorities in both Serbia and Croatia, not to relativize the crimes and conflicts that were committed, but to move on. And now everything is being done to go backwards. And that hatred is increasing. Maybe if we didn't live year after year with the "Storm"... The culture of memory should exist, but it should not be mutually used as a source of new growing nationalism, which is nothing but the birth of hatred towards the other. There is little room left for love. When you pour salt on that wound every year, that wound opens up more and more. I repeat, there was a time in both Croatia and Serbia when the people who make the decisions tried to somehow make that life next to each other possible. Now it seems completely irrational, hopeless. The war is not over.
photo: nebojša babić...
Last year, you were the chairman of the Bitef Board, what do you think, should it be maintained at all costs?, regardless of the quality of the selection?
I think that a mistake was made in the steps with this year's Bitef because it seems to me that the troops, the world's theaters refuse to come claiming that there is some censorship here in relation to the artists. And that all refers to what happened a year ago, to the disapproval of the program in which Milo Rau's play was featured. If Bitef performed this year with the fact that Milo Rau's allegedly controversial play was performed as part of something called Ne:Bitef and that there was no such thing as censorship in our theater public, the troupes would not have refused to come. It is a negative campaign that spreads in circles, and its influence can be disastrous for Bitef. Last year there was no censorship, but the Board's refusal to accept Milo Rau's play without giving any reasons. I also resigned from that decision. The proposal of coach Miloš Lolic was not accepted and I think I had to do it. Then later, the same play was performed with ten times more publicity than it would have had it been performed at Bitef. The strength of a large number of people connected with the theater was shown to bring that play. So freedom existed, and that's why there was no reason to talk about censorship this year.
Because of that mistake in the steps, there was an uproar between two sides: one that does not want anything to appear in our theater at the world level as long as this team is in power. I have always been against the fact that plays are not played, because that would eventually show the authorities that there are irregularities in society. I don't believe it had any effect. I never thought that art should stop as a protest against the government, any, anywhere. Especially the theaters should not stop. It is the only place from which something can be expressed, to be said. After all, that proscribed Milo Rau allegedly created a scandal at the opening of Bitef because he said something that is not being talked about at all now. About the lithium mine. He had the opportunity to stand on the stage and say in an extremely benign, extremely well-intentioned, romantic, poetic way, that he remembered the days he spent in the country where we lived, that he traveled with some "bug", and that now Chancellor Olaf Scholz (who is no longer the chancellor) is coming from Germany, who wants to mine lithium in Serbia. What's so scary? What did Rau disrupt with that? Suddenly, a big scandal broke out, costing us years without Bitef. And maybe Bitefa too. Totally silly.
There is an opinion that this year's Bitef and Fest selections are unworthy of their reputation, because it is considered that the progressive administrations do not know how to choose good plays.. What do you think??
I don't know what the plays are that have been proposed for this year's Bitef, nothing about them has reached the public except for those cancellations.
For the Fest, I know for sure that the selection is good, thanks to Dragan Jeličić, the selector who is a man of film authority, who can bring good films and whom no one will refuse. And this is not about any progressive administration. He does not belong to anything that could be any political administration. It's just a mistake. He is undoubtedly someone who really wants that Fest to continue its tradition. It is not clear to me why it is necessary to demolish the Fest and that through someone who is trying to create it and to maintain a good tradition. That Fest started in Tito's time, then continued in the post-Tito era, and in the time when nationalisms were on the rise and Slobodan Milošević was in power, and I see no reason why it should cease to exist now. I think that at some point Jelicic will give up on everything, because it makes no sense to attack him for something that is simply not true. But: if neither Bitef nor Fest are held, it will not affect the ruling policy. It will only cause a reversible reaction that will not be good.
In September, you will "Atelier 212", where you play in several plays, wait for the new year.d. Director Ljubisa Ristic. The ensemble won't let him.. What to do in such a situation?
Objectively, I have finished my working life in "Atelier 212" and I cannot, nor should I, influence what the ensemble feels. Also, Ljubiša Ristić is a big topic that requires a big, special interview. It would be difficult to describe in a few sentences what is behind that name. However, I would still dare to comment on the event in the Atelier. First of all, because a great injustice was done to the acting director, Gordana Goncić, by the fact that no one informed her that she had been relieved of her duties. She was informed by accident. No one had announced to her that it would happen that day. No one gave her any signal. No one invited her to any conversation before or after that. No one told her - thank you - from the people who put her in that position. And she managed to maintain the level of the theater above the water in those few years in conditions that were unbearable. And when people from the theater say that it was one of the most successful past seasons, then it is. I don't know a theater director in our country who would agree to have a very successful director (Boris Liješević) come and tell him - I would like to make a play about myself and my theater - and for that director to give him carte blanche for that, as Gordana Goncić did, so after that the performance, My theater, won six Sterija awards at the Sterija stage, in addition to a large number of awards in the region. Even Ljubiša Ristić does not deny that success, as far as I know. So, that one unprofessional and human injustice was done to Gordana Goncić, and I think that she owes a great debt of gratitude to that ensemble that she guarded and did not allow anyone to insult him for supporting the students. Because they have that right.
photo: nebojša babić...
And Ljubisa Ristic?
Ljuša brought me to the theater. Ljuša, Dara Džokić, Pera Božović. They brought me. I performed my first theater performance under his direction, Cement Heiner Müller in Atelier 212. And there, regardless of the fact that it was 45 years ago, I can't forget. I played the largest number of plays in my life directed by him. That was until I was 31, 32, I was one of the youngest. We played in various places and created some totally non-institutional theater. And I learned a lot during that time. If anyone knows how to make a theater, it was Ljuša. He was a magician to create a theater. An earthquake in Montenegro destroyed the old town of Budva in the late seventies. It was renovated in a few years and was empty, no one lived in it. Then Ljubiša came and was invited by Svetozar Marović, Velibor Zolak and Svetozar Radulović - people of crucial influence in Budva and politics at the time, and Ljuša said - "we will move actors to this city." And so the City Theater was born. Ljubiša created it. He was the first director, Šerbedžija the artistic director. Nada Kokotović, Petar Božović, Miodrag Krivokapić, Ana Kostovska, Bata Mihailović. This is only part of the creative team from 1987, with them I must not forget Milorad Vučelić - leftists and Yugoslavs from the end of the eighties of the last century. Ristić created or managed several other theaters. And that cannot be taken away from him. What can be read as a "stain" on Ljuša's social and political career is his involvement in the Yugoslav Left, his political closeness to Mira Marković. Maybe I'm wrong that, regardless of the absolute disagreement, I have an understanding and I can still talk to him today without him telling me - you have no idea, Cvetković! I don't know, many people will blame me... but... at a time when other JUL members were building palaces, buying islands, building mini-hotels, he built a theater. In the late 1970s and early 1980s, he created the KPGT in Zagreb, and in 1994/5 he stationed it in the Old Sugar Factory in Belgrade. When I found out about what just happened, I told him: I understand everything, but why do you need this at this hour, after everything you've done in your life, in the theater? Not because of his age - I made a film with Miša Radivojević this year, at the age of 86, which I think is excellent, called Island at the bottom. Therefore, I believe that even Ljuša in his eighties has the strength and desire to do something in the theater that he might not have done before. At one point, many of us, including me, could not agree politically with Ljuša, but we never questioned his theater, that KPGT. I played in Ljubiša's performances, for which there were queues tens of meters long for tickets, as soon as they were announced in the SKC repertoire. Today, that can be compared to the line in the Yugoslav Drama Theater for Oedipus, let's say. That desire to watch a show like that Mass in A minor, Liberation of Skopje, such as Karamazov Duško Jovanović, like Lyušin Hamlet, such as A military secret Duško Jovanović, Carmina Burana, The Secret of the Black Hand, Baader-Meinhof, Waiting for Godot, Ljubinko and Desanka, it was something that never happened again. And that's why I can't say a word against Ljuša as a director and as someone who definitely knows theater. What you say that he met with great public rejection of the ensemble is absolutely correct. But I know that he is a fighter throughout his life and that he will fight to get them - he will. And maybe, as he himself says - if he sees that it is not going, maybe he will give way to someone else. This is my feeling about the whole situation in the theater of which I was once a member and for 12 years the director.
What did Furtwängler teach you??
He taught me that I have the right to love my country and to believe in art no matter how utopia it is.
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